I don't hate homosexuals (or bisexuals or transgendered persons). But I do hate that it doesn't seem possible to have a civil, grace-filled conversation around the issue, especially within the Christian circles that I frequent. Those coming from staunchly conservative paradigms seem to fear that dialogging with LGBT (Lesbian Gay Bisexual Transgender) Christians in order to hear each other out is tantamount to endorsing the "homosexual agenda". And those coming from the staunchly liberal paradigms that are passionately pro-LGBT often seem overly eager to interpret a willingness just to talk as a willingness to embrace LGBT lifestyles as normal and acceptable. Given these realities, the simple fact of the matter is that folks from both ends of this issue and the various points in between don't talk to each other and hence, don't know each other. Out of such ignorance arises all kinds of mischaracterizations, misrepresentations, and misunderstandings. Which only then makes matters worse, not better.
During pre-Civil Rights Movement history, the absence of meaningful and deep relationships between Whites and Blacks led to exaggerated stereotypes and amplified fears. In general, the absence of relationships where wielding power is NOT the point often leads to dehumanization of "other" and fear-driven opinions and positions. Emergent icon/pastor/author/speaker Rob Bell is quoted as having said, "We have no right to speak about homosexuality unless we have homosexual friends and are familiar with their struggles." In other words, this volatile issue involves real human beings and so must be discussed within the context of real relationships.
I quote Bell not to say that I agree with him completely on this, but to differentiate his point from mine. To his credit, I believe too many Christians who DON'T have any LGBT family members or close friends often stake out really harsh positions. However, those same Christians come to softer conclusions when, down the road, they discover that, a) a member of their family is LGBT, b) a good and close friend is LGBT, or c) they one day conclude that THEY are LGBT (ala Ted Haggard?)! Until that revelation occurs, how many people are beat up, even destroyed, by these Christians up until the day that they feel compelled to be more tolerant or accepting because it's now someone that they know and care about. "Lesbians, gays, bisexuals and trannies are all an affront to God's creation and an abomination that should never be tolerated or embraced. What was that? Our 28-yr-old son just told you he's gay (claims he always has been) and has been living out of the closet for the past 3 years in Manhattan? (gulp) Well, even though I don't believe that this is how God made him and I can't stand behind his lifestyle, I'm not going to expel him from our family or church. After all, he's still our son, isn't he?" At any rate, one reason why this 'switcheroo' happens is because too many of us take initial hard-line positions on tough issues sort of assuming that "this will never happen to me or anyone that I care about." Getting to know real people for whom being LGBT is a daily issue, imho, can only help us know what to think and how to live together on the same spinning rock in this part of the universe.
With all of this in mind, our church has agreed to serve as the host-site for a forum on homosexuality in early May 2008 where this kind of missing conversation can take place. It's still in the planning stages but we've already started a dialog with a devout AA Christian who for nearly a decade led those with sexual brokenness through a restorative process but for the past several years has reached the opposite conclusion and is now openly gay. We hope that we can provide a safe and civil atmosphere where he truly feels valued as one who has been made in the image of God and is free to tell his story. I'm also hoping that the Spirit will raise up a pair of straight Christian parents who now have openly LGBT grown children or family members. I'm trusting God to raise up an example of Christians who disapprove with the lifestyle but are unwilling or unable to stop loving their family members. If I can somehow manage, this event will NOT be about getting everyone to agree on cause or to agree about what the Bible says or doesn't say about the subject. I doubt that day will ever come, so why exhaust ourselves trying to get everyone to agree on stuff like this, right?
Again, my Spirit-driven desire is to hatch a conversation that rarely happens and for a plethora of AsiAm Christians from even outside our church to hear how real people struggle to have solid convictions while still learning how to co-exist with each other. Some folks recently asked me why I didn't appear to be freaking out around the possibility that very Conservative Christians and others might toss me out on my ear if I went ahead with hosting this forum. To which I replied, "I'm just trying to get a conversation going, not stake out a particular position in either direction. What's so controversial about hearing each other's stories?"
Jesus has made me naive enough to believe that God's Spirit will in fact enable us to have this needed conversation. Just reading about that 14-yr-old Oxnard, CA, boy who was murdered by an 8th grade classmate spurs me on to host this forum. The victim, Larry King, weeks earlier had just started coming to school adorned by a selection of female accessories and referring to himself as "gay" (imho, sounds more like Gender Identity Disorder). At any rate, the other classmate eventually upped the ante from cruel-name-calling to bringing a loaded pistol to school and putting two bullets in King's head. As odd and quirky as King was, I hope you will agree with me that he certainly didn't deserve to be executed with two bullets to his head.
We need to talk to each other, even if we can't see eye-to-eye on everything. If you or your friends are interested, what I know thus far is that it's going to be on either the first or second Saturday in May, probably starting @ 7:30pm and going for a couple of hours. It will most likely be in a talkshow format with me as your host. And the sponsoring org (Christians on Social Issues / CSI) hopes/plans to host a follow up conference afterwards.
Comments (28)
hey ken, i'm glad we'll get an opportunity to listen to one another. i'll be there for sure. :)
Sounds like the pastor from the clip you showed on MLK Sunday. Looking forward to seeing what the Spirit has in store for us.
...this is a tremendous challenge, I am very interested to learn more...
that is awesome! I know I've gotten bashed by other believers just because I believed it was possible to be a believer and be homosexual. It's a sin, but we all have our tough issues that we have to work out with God.
Sounds interesting. I personally don't know any gay Asian-Americans, but could see how much tougher it is for them than gays of other ethnicities.
i would love to make it, as i've encountered many from the LGBT community and become good friends with them in the social work field and have discussed the conflict it seems between the Christian church community and the LGBT community. it's definitely a topic i've struggled with in loving my fellow brothers and sisters and the ideas of sinfulness, lifestyle, and love. if it's possible, i vote the first weekend in March, b/c i'll be in LA for that weekend anyways.
I have a gay cousin who grew up in a home where his dad physically beat him up. It's no wonder to me or anyone that when he became of age he moved to NY and is openly gay, an abusive lifestyle in and of itself. If you check the stats it is inherently abusive. But this is beside the point...
I don't know if quoting Rob Bell validates your point or anybody else. He's made a lot of unorthodox statements that really calls to question on whether or not he really is a believer or a postmodern "positive confession" preacher or worse preaching "another gospel". I take your opinion at face value more than any quoted emerging church authors. The reason is because they just parrot each other and when they aren't twisting the scriptures to fit their worldview, they are just giving their opinions. If we are ever going to agree on anything we need a standard to base this on, however controversial that may be on its own. Hebrews 4:15 says, "For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." What this means is that Christ is the person sinners and saints ultimately have to identify with to receive healing, forgiveness, and reconcialition--with God first and then with people. For Rob Bell to say we have no right to speak against homosexuality unless we are familiar with GBLT people or their struggles is an affront to the atoning work of Christ and the whole of the Gospel.
As for identifying the GBLT struggle for "acceptance" in mainstream to pre-Civil Rights Movement America towards people of color I disagree too. It is not a sin to be black, brown, red, or "yellow". It was a moral obligation for a self professing Christian nation to accept people of color on the same grounds as the majority white Americans in terms of political equality and access to common amenities is concerned. It is not a moral obligation for a Nation, secuar or not, to accommodate GBLT to have equal access in areas that are reserved for families or identifiably a common good on the grounds of sexual orientation.
Now I'm not against preserving or providing protection for GBLT human rights or possibly, in a narrower restriction, civil rights, but that is on the grounds that they are persons, not that their lifestyle is a legitimate one that requires the same rights as people who are by nature darker skinned. I think it should be limited...
Finally, is it the purpose of the church to provide a forum for a homosexual to give his reasons for why he is a homosexual. Would you do this for a murderer, a rapist, a drug addict who is unrepentant and just wants people to "accept" him/her? Was there ever an example in Scripture old or new where a person violating the law of God was legitimately given the opportunity to glorify his/her sin, and God approving it? Did Jesus allow a sinner to share his sins without Him redirecting it, just letting that person be?
It could be, Pastor, that I've been out in the world so long, that is, interating with people in the world, that I don't think that letting someone rationalize their sin(s) is going to get anywhere. I'm not on the fundamentalist side on this, it's the realistic side. People will not change because you smile and nod at their sin. The Great Commission does not say that either...
May is the month, not March. So if you're hoping to attend, please take note of that boo boo on my part. Thanks, to you who've commented thus far. Again, my hope is that we can manage to have a conversation with people who are estranged from each other. No matter what my position is on this or anyone else's, we're still left with trying to understand how far to go with loving and helping all kinds of sinners.
Thank you for your sane approach to this, in a world filled with much insanity. As a person who has had many "strong opinions" tempered by real life, I have to say that I appreciate the Rob Bell quote. No, we should never nullify scripture by our experience...but treating people as people, regardless of their attitudes, choices, etc....in my estimation is a very biblical approach.
Blessings on your bold move. May much good fruit come from it, and may much religion be squashed in favor of real faith and love.
k
cool. we're stepping out of the shadows. tis a good thing.
I wonder how long before we start getting backlash....
Don't you find it amazing that there would be potential backlash just because we're trying to find a way to talk to homosexual Christians? Talking isn't condoning--yes, Joseph, even talking to rapists and murderers isn't condoning their sin. I'm positive that I've talked to scores of people guilty of what most would consider heinous sins in my 17 years of leading a Bible study at a secular drug rehab facility. Many of those who've been in my studies felt horribly guilty about their sins and, even though many were Christians, no longer dared to believe that Jesus had died for their sins. Having talked already to a number of openly homosexual Christians, I know that many bristle at our calling their orientation sinful. Whether we agree with that or not, we at least need to appreciate that our saying that we love the sinner and not the sin is highly offensive to them. Again, whether we agree with them or not, if we're trying to find a way for the gospel to penetrate and transform a definite subculture, imho, we would do well to learn how to speak God's truth with God's grace. Deaf ears can't hear the sweetest music; hard hearts won't be moved by the most stirring story.
Jesus made it a point to talk to those that the Pharisees and Sadducees considered to be society's most notorious sinners. True, he made no bones about pointing out their sins and calling them to repentance. But from what's been recorded at least, most were able to hear the grace behind his call. Most were moved to surrender their lives to Him. I'm still trying to learn how Jesus did that so that I can minister to fellow unwashed sinners in the same manner. Methinks that the typical "Christian" approach is to point accusing and condemning fingers instead of authentically caring for the LGBT person as one who, though fallen, is also made in the image of God. I'm not claiming that I already know how to be like Christ but I'm not done trying.
Back to expected backlash from this effort: come to think of it, Jesus took a lot of heat for his willingness to be associated with 'hopeless' sinners. Why should I or any of the churches that will come together for this forum expect otherwise? As author Robert Farrar Capon once wrote, "Everywhere Jesus went there was usually someone pointing a finger of accusation at this back. If no one (in the Church) is pointing a similar finger at yours, maybe you're really not following Jesus." (paraphrased by a middle-aged mind)
Please pray that God's Spirit would embolden a set of AsiAm Christian parents to be willing to step forward and share their pain and struggles with loving an openly homosexual young adult or adult child. The widespread reluctance of AA Xn parents to share their story in a Christian setting only serves to underscore the widespread culture of shame and condemnation that should not exist in communities of recovering sinners. This atmosphere is so tangible and so prevalent that there's still a good chance that the individual who has courageously agreed to share his own story of coming to the conclusion that God made him gay may back out because he's not convinced that this won't be a public 'stoning.' That's why we need to talk. Not just for those who are directly dealing with LGBT issues. But for those of us who aren't, who are safey ensconced in our LGBT-free environs, we need to learn how to listen and to speak as those who have no right to throw stones at other sinners.
I think Barbara Johnson was one of the best 'communicators' to society as a whole. It is a shame she is now gone on to her eternal rest as so many people were helped by her.
I have a tendency to be one of those who listened, but unfortunately one must be able to 'hear' as well. A rude awakening occurs when you find someone you dearly love is not hetersexual. You often become the one to go into the closet when they come out.
Yeah, there will be backlash, but count me in as one of the people who can try to help mitigate it. I think it's a fascinating topic.
Interesting. Couldn't go to sleep last night and started thinking about this. Then the following verses/passages came to mind:
"If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone"
and
1 Cor. 13 (esp the first few verses: "If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal...")
as well as the point you made about Jesus loving the poor, the prostitutes - those rejected by both the cultural AND religious sectors. The same that is being done with LGBTs today.
On backlash. It often has a subconscious psychological tint to it. Often it's done in a defensive response to something you want to avoid, push away. Something you know deep-down that you'll have to deal with sooner or later, but it's so emotionally nerve racking or repulsive to you right now that you lash back to try to stave it off even just for the moment. Backlash from other churches might be a good thing...it'll mean that they recognize that sooner or later they'll have to start dealing with the issue also.
God bless you and your determination to do this. It DOES need to be done, and not just in CA. I hope everyone in attendance walks away with a greater love of one another and a better understanding of how to deal with the issues of homosexuality in Christian lives. You actually CAN love people who don't live their lives the way you would have them to. After all, if we had to agree with everything that everyone does in order to love them, we wouldn't even love ourselves. And hate is not what God created us for. You have my prayers for a successful discussion!
-Amy
Thumbs up PK for taking the lead on a very sensitive issue. I don't know how you are promoting this event, but I suggest posting it to Craigslist in the SoCal regions. I'm sure it will increase your odds for finding people for your discussion.
it is an intriguing endeavor... I should be able to attend after returning from Singapore the first weekend of May
Dialogue is necessary from both sides to come to a better understanding in order to coexist and respect one another's point of view.
Yay and eprops for taking the lead PK!
It was really inspiring to read this, Pastor Ken. I really feel like most of the time Christians are happily enjoying life in their little circles, oblivious to the social issues around them. It's not about just feeding the homeless and working at soup kitchens, it's about dealing with much more controversial issues like homosexuality, ethnicity, and other political issues. Who says that Christians can't be political? Who is to say that Jesus wouldn't have some stand on these issues, because He certainly does! Anyways, one time at GrX (my church up here in SF) we had a speaker come in who had once been gay and had gone through a transforming, restorative process - a very intense testimony indeed - and who now is straight (or claiming now to be). His visit opened up many lines of dialogue in the church, which quickly closed once he left. I really wish this was an issue that was more thought about. Do you mind if I posted your entry on my xanga (I think a lot of people who read it will gain a lot from it)? Of course I will link to you and everything :)
THANKS so much for writing about this. Just to talk about it...to begin dialogue.. is a huge step, as sad as that is in this day and age. As Christians, we should really have come to this much earlier. You have my staunch support for leading the forum!
by all means, ambidreamz, spread this post around!!! I'm meeting soon with 2 members who are film makers to see if we can somehow capture this approach in a documentary. What do you think?
Good stuff, Ken.
I appreciate your willingness to foster responsible dialog. My question for you, for the conference is more of a civic, political question than one of personal faithfulness. I hope there will be more discussion about what "justice" in the public and private arenas is for the LGBT community and Church. I appreciate your analogy drawn from the civil rights era, but I am wary of it. Wary because, while I love the intent of the example (a proximity that breeds acceptance/demythologizes the other) I am uncomfortable sometimes with the comparison to the civil rights movement. In my experience, and that's all it is- the voices for justice and equality from even the civil rights movement and the voices of many oppressed ethnic minorities in the US cry out for economic and civic justice and not necessarily even relationship. To be rhetorical, Malcom X did not want my friendship, he wanted my job.
The history of the LGBT community is fraught with suffered violence and rejection, so I do not wish to diminish it at all. Quite the opposite: the story of the child highlights the social repercussions of not fitting into accepted categories most painfully and shamefully. Woe to we who foster such hate. But my question is what is the justice to be had in such relationships? is the plight of the LGBT community at root the same as the Asian American community? And while I think that familiarity and relationship does help soften some, it hardens others. There are vast numbers of sons and daughters disowned by their Christian parents because of this issue, and it seems that the path of reconcilliation will necessarily lead us to a place where we must account for our self-righteous severity - regardless of our position on the matter! I think the testimony of the South is that proximity - good working relationships-family involvement, etc., are not as a whole enough to engender justice and love (?). I detect this note in your not-quite- acceptance of the Bell quote.
So beyond simply "some of my best friends are gay,' what does it look like to be just and care for the LBGT community? Are just relations with the LGBT community a different kind of justice? Slave ships and border patrols suggest to me it is, but the poor child in Oxnard suggests maybe it isn't. Hopefully you can discuss this some and enlighten me! (And also point out where even the framing of the question betrays my own bias...) thanks so much. keep it up.
Ooo, Erin, you're kickin' my butt with your justice questions! I'm not sure that the upcoming forum can address these but maybe we'll have to bring up the justice angle. Whether we do or we don't, let me take a stab at finding the justice angles on this issue:
When the issue was/is racism, it should have been (wasn't always) crystal clear that the victims of injustice were in fact "victims" whom the White majority was abusing, oppressing, etc. Asking the sinful oppressor to define what justice should look like for those they were oppressing was eventually exposed to be another form of injustice! Inviting African Americans to describe the injustices of racist Whites and privileged systems and to project how instead they had a right to live and be was both empowering and just.
But how might Christ want us to apply his justice to the relationship between LGBTs and his Church? I think that there must be growing numbers of Christians who strongly believe that too often, the Church has abused and oppressed LGBTs, speaking against them with apparent impunity, as if they are subhumans or at least the worst kind of deviant, hated or fear sinners. As Christians, it is long past time for many of us to do some serious soul-searching to see whether we have dismissed LGBT people as those Jesus didn't love and die for and therefore we are free to hate. But here's the rub: unlike the injustice of racism, many Christians--maybe even most?--view openly LGBT people not as innocent victims of their oppression but as deviant sinners. As such, while we might be moved to love them, we cannot find license in Scripture to love their sexual orientation. As I mentioned in my blog, how can we claim to right any wrongs by loving the sin and not the sinner when, in this case, the self-described victims of our injustice do not see their sexual orientation as 'sin' (and therefore a choice) but who they just are (not a choice at all but just a fact of origin)?
As much as I find myself sort of stuck in this morass, I do believe that it is clearly unjust not to let a person speak for him- or herself or for us to force another person to live as we choose to characterize him or her. At the end of the day, that person and I might still have some serious disagreements, but I believe Christ compels us all really to hear where we're coming from.
A much earlier comment asked why we should feel compelled to hear from a rapist or a murderer but examples like that are, to some, much more clearly sinners. On this issue, especially to those who believe that this is not a choice but how one was born, it is an affront to be told that being gay or lesbian is the same kind of sinful choice as choosing to violently abuse or kill another human being. Since the person who raised that challenge is a Christian soldier currently stationed in Iraq (I believe), how would he feel if, upon returning home and coming back to our church, people automatically chararcterized him as a murderer without letting him respond when he believed wholeheartedly that he was a dutiful soldier, doing his duty to protect our freedoms? Not a great comparison (sorry), but the point I'm trying to make is if and when a person feels unjustly characterized, it is a just act to invite that person to speak for him- or herself.
Erin, I would LOVE to get together with you and Kev to gain more of a justice perspective on this issue before we convene the forum. Thanks for bringing up this essential angle.